Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm with Bill here on this. Maybe it's because I've ran into similar
situations, but, to me, the way I see it is that the people wanting this
article, if possible, would have bought the back issue therefore
supporting ASIA (which I need to renew my membership btw), and
someone making copies and sending them around is making it so that
that person is getting something they did not pay for, and now will not
have to pay for. That is taking money out of ASIA's pocket. Again as Bill
stated it's not a huge deal, but never the less $50 here and there make a
difference. If we are interested in the information that ASIA puts out then
we should step up and purchase the periodical. I have no doubt there is
no one here wanting to cause harm, and it may not be illegal
technically, but it seems to fly it the face of common courtesy. Again this
is just my opinion and I have no doubt there are others who
disagree....now off to go renew my membership.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Hi Bill!
Good to see you here

Try as I might, I just simply don't have the time to read every post made here.
I understand your point, I really do. But you also must understand that we are very much on the honor system here, and with that comes a certain amount of trust.
I trust my fellow OLFers to conduct them selves as if we were all sitting face to face chatting about what ever. Some times things get heated but it always settles back down. I personally like our little micro culture we have here, and wouldn't want it any other way.

Thanks for pointing out that you still have that fantastic issue available. I have it, and love it!

Bill, please don't be a stranger! You are always welcome here!

Best
Lance

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Well, certainly if I had known that there were existing copies of that issue I would have simply ordered the back issue rather than asking for a copy of the article.

I think I can say that knowing most of the folks in this thread to some degree, they're a bunch with a lot of class and I don't think any of them would intentionally do anything that would even have the slightest appearance of being less than fully supportive of the efforts of fine organizations like ASIA and GAL.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

As a "George Bailey" of lutherie (Watch for that coming thread, I'm formulating it.) I would like to weigh in on this discussion. In my professional life I have the opportunity to interact with a large number of diverse groups, organizations, and businesses. The two I admire most are the luthier community and the Congress of New Urbanism.

What the two have in common is the closely held belief that the sharing of information is the tide that raises all boats. Both have the passion to embrace new members, to suffer their lack of experience, to virulently defend their own practices and beliefs in the spirit of continuous improvement of their craft, art, or discipline.

The OLF Forums have been a personal joy to read, to learn , to disagree, and sometimes to laugh. All of you who contribute raise the tide.

The ASIA appears to me to be an almost impossible task. As a not for profit, working on a volunteer basis, with little funding, it has persevered for many years. This is a true testament to the passion they bring to lutherie.

There is common ground here, and as I read the posts it is very apparent to me both have a true passion for the sharing of information. As this continues, please let this guide your opinions.

Chris Koos

ASIA has 8 copies left. You better hurry if you want your own "0fficial" copy!

Stan VanDruff

Folks,

     Brock e-mailed me last night to site what he thought was a personal "jab" at he and Lance over this. That was not the intent of my comments, nor was it to imply that anyone on this forum meant any actual "harm" to ASIA.

     First, I'm more than happy to apologize publicly to both Lance and Brock, and to the rest of the OLF membership, if my post came across as a personal attack - it was not meant as such.

      Fmorelli, you are correct. I probably should have mailed Brock on the side to ask him to intercede in this thread, but I was "in the moment", and trying to explain, to all involved, how the situation looked from my perspective. This is certainly not the first time an issue regarding ASIA copyrighted materials has popped up on the web in places other than the ASIA site, and I suppose I've become a little "reactionary" about it. Maybe I DO need to cool my jets.

     To attempt a better explanation of my remarks - We put a fair amount of time and energy into publicizing the availability of back issues, and I guess I assume that folks know they are there, or at least would come to us to inquire about availability, but in any event, my comments were that the "moderators" of a forum, (who are not necessarily always the owners of that particular forum), must have SOME responsibility for potentially negative "stuff" that might show up within their on-line vehicle - NOT that the management is personally responsible for every comment made by an individual participant, but that potentially negative, illegal, abusive, flaming, etc., etc., - whatever - gets nipped in the bud before things get really out of hand.

     If the shoe were on the other foot, even the mere "possibility" that a "potential" copyright infringement issue "might" be getting started in a "Guitarmaker.com" thread, would have caused me, as a moderator of ASIA's forum, to get very queasy, and ask the participants to cool it. I'm not "directly" responsible for someone else's comments, but I am responsible for the integrity, in whole, of the forum within which those comments are posted.

     Unless my memory fails me, Lance started this forum for the very reason that other forums' rules were too strict, too choking and repressive, but going full steam in the opposite direction can have its drawbacks as well.

     Both Lance and Brock have indicated that there will be little, if any, moderation on the OLF, and that you are all on the honor system regarding your behavior. That works very well about 95% of the time but that other 5% can occasionally be problematic.

     Once again, my intent was not to mount a frontal assult, nor to imply anything in a personally negative way.

     Bill

     

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] [QUOTE=John Mayes] I'm with Bill here on this.
Maybe it's because I've ran into similar
situations, but, to me, the way I see it is that the people wanting this
article, if possible, would have bought the back issue therefore
supporting ASIA (which I need to renew my membership btw), and
someone making copies and sending them around is making it so that
that person is getting something they did not pay for, and now will not
have to pay for. That is taking money out of ASIA's pocket. Again as Bill
stated it's not a huge deal, but never the less $50 here and there make a
difference. If we are interested in the information that ASIA puts out then
we should step up and purchase the periodical. I have no doubt there is
no one here wanting to cause harm, and it may not be illegal
technically, but it seems to fly it the face of common courtesy. Again this
is just my opinion and I have no doubt there are others who
disagree....now off to go renew my membership.
[/QUOTE]

Or.... by providing someone with a "taste" of the very high value of ASIA a
look at an article may also in fact promote the idea of becomming an ASIA
member.

I am thrilled that I can subscribe to ASIA and the OLF all at the same time
and enjoy both organizations to the fullest.

Thank You Bill, Lance, and Brock! [/QUOTE]

Yes, while that is a very real possibility Hesh, I simply cannot subscribe to
the honesty in that logic. That is one of the reasons people give when
they download/steal music through file sharing for it being OK. Yet it is
still stealing in my eyes.

Don't get me wrong I'm not calling anyone a thief on this forum as I know
we are all, to my knowledge, good and honest people, but I think the
logic you laid forth is flawed in principle. It very well could go exactly as
you say, and more people supporting ASIA in the end is a good thing, but
that still does not make the offense right in my eyes.

Believe me I've made far more mistakes and poor decisions than probably
anyone here when I was younger, so I'm not trying to point any fingers.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Well I guess that's where we differ is that I see this article the intellectual
property of Kevin, and or ASIA and I believe reproducing it just isn't
Kosher. But I suppose if ASIA doesn't have a problem with it (I don't know
if it they do or not so I can't speak for them) then far be it for me to get in
the way. I was just saying how I felt on the subject.

Please though don't take words of my post out of context.

You said "You are using words like “thief” and “steal” and “flawed” and
“mistakes” when all any one was doing here was making a Xerox copy for
their pals of a very good article…….. "

But if you look at my post I did not use these words to describe anyone
here in fact I did just the opposite. I said (the words you've emphasized
in bold):

"Believe me I've made far more mistakes and poor decisions than
probably anyone here when I was younger, so I'm not trying to point any
fingers."

and


"Don't get me wrong I'm not calling anyone a thief on this forum as
I know we are all, to my knowledge, good and honest people...

and

"That is one of the reasons people give when they download/steal music
through file sharing for it being OK"

I still think your logic is flawed here, but I guess you think the same about
mine and that is fine. I would rather play it conservative, but it's cool we
all go our own way. Believe me I got nothing but love for everyone here I
just want to see the person who put their hard work into something get
compensated accordingly.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] ...all any one was doing here was making a Xerox copy for their pals of a very good article……[/QUOTE]
Hesh, I think the real problem here was volume. If the first request was made and fulfilled (believing that the issue was out of print), and it stopped there, all of this would have passed unnoticed. There were just too many "me too's."

[QUOTE=Bill Moll] Both Lance and Brock have indicated that there will be little, if any, moderation on the OLF, and that you are all on the honor system regarding your behavior. That works very well about 95% of the time but that other 5% can occasionally be problematic.
[/QUOTE]
Bill, the interesting thing here is that it DID work. You, being a member, alerted and reminded us that the issue is still available, and that copying without permission may be a legal and ethical faux pas. Your post immediately stopped any wholesale distribution of the article. One or two other posters before you also questioned the propriety of copying, which gets people thinking about the issue. The system works.

BTW, when something like this comes up, there are two things that can be done before making a public request. First, contact the organization (in this case, ASIA) and ask about the availability of an issue/article. Second, if the organization can't help, contact the article's author and ask if you can buy a copy from him/her. We often hesitate to bother busy people with questions, but those folks tend to be appreciative of the effort.

Sorry guys but this seems so petty to me. Think outside of the box.

Here's how other professional organizations handle this. At the end of a journal article there is a statement, "Photocopying of copywrited material is not permitted. Reprints available upon request."

By ordering, and paying a nominal fee for each reprint, one acknowledges copywrited material and compensates the author and/or publisher. This may be something for ASIA to consider. Fees generated for popular articles might exceed the fees generated for purchases of entire issues when all that is needed is a single article.

Put your marketing hat on. Consider that a luthier who publishes useful information is able to order up a few hundred reprints and give them out at meetings. It gets his name and work exposed to more people. If it works for him, he will be more inclined to publish more useful information. Likewise, other luthiers might also see this as another way to get more exposure. If it is seen as supporting the luthier, you'll have folks breaking down ASIA's doors to get their articles accepted. That's how it works in other professional organizations. In fact, in my industry (Medical Drugs and Devices) because there are so many applicants, they have to appoint committees or juries to accept the best articles...no "arm twisting" required.

It just might kill a few birds with one stone.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Put your marketing hat on. Consider that a luthier
who publishes useful information is able to order up a few hundred
reprints and give them out at meetings. It gets his name and work
exposed to more people. If it works for him. . .[/QUOTE]

I'm with JJ. I've been reading, Small is the New Big, by Seth Godin.
He called this sort of a thing a free prize. When someone gets something
they don't expect from a group or business or what have you, there's a
relationship made and they'll likely want to pursue it. I bet making about
15 articles available for free via PDF would be a great move. Non-
subscribers like me would get a chance to taste. We'd likely want more.
It would make a dent in the number of back-issues being ordered but
likely be worth it in new or renewed subscriptions.